The problem with cancel culture

[rananicolee]

I ENCOURAGE YOU ALL TO READ EVERY WORD BECAUSE THERE'S SOME THINGS WE ALL DON'T KNOW.

I love making you guys think. I like having discussions and I want to have this discussion because I see so much canceling in the k-pop culture...which results in nothing. Seungri still has fans despite him retiring and his crimes. Lee Byung Hun was cancelled over and over again but he's still starring in movies. Super Junior has been cancelled so many times and they're still going. So what's the deal with cancel culture? Let's talk about it. THIS IS NOT A CASE TO DEFEND SEUNGRI AS I DO NOT KNOW THAT MAN. IF I WERE TO SEE HIM, I WOULDN'T KNOW HIM.

One of my favorite vocalists, Jamey Jasta, talked about this on one of his podcast episodes. He feels that cancel culture doesn't do anything which it doesn't because you still see cancelled celebrities and influencers still having a fanbase. He feels you should put that energy towards something more positive. For example, if you hate Chris Brown then help domestic violence survivors. Something like that.

Now here I go with why cancel culture doesn't work with examples of people who have been cancelled but are still successful in their own right.

I'm using GIFs/pictures to help with remembrance and to give visual references of these people, guys.

Let's start with Chris Brown.

We all know his case. He's beat Rihanna. He's beat Karrueche. He's had so many legal troubles. I remember after the Rihanna case everyone thought his career was over but it's not. I have friends that are still huge Chris Brown fans. He's still a top R&B singer. People still work with him despite his dealings in the past. Fans of his are still fanatical as ever.

Nick Carter

He was the heartthrob in BSB back in the 90s but he also apparently raped someone. Melissa Schuman from Dream accused him of rape. His fans defended him. BSB went on to record an album with him despite these allegations and he's on tour with them. His fans still fanatical as ever. I witnessed them coming out with "evidence" that he didn't do it.

Now these cases are the ones I really want to talk about because mainstream audiences do not know these people. Okay, maybe one since this was MAJOR news so I'll start with this man.

Tim Lambesis.

If you don't know him, he's the lead singer of metalcore (and Christian) band, As I Lay Dying. Tim hired a hitman to kill his wife. He went to PRISON but...he's back in the music industry. He's been cancelled numerous times but As I Lay Dying still has fans to this day. They just played a show in Houston! I know people that are their fans. My ex-on and off thing boy is a huge fan! The news of him wanting his wife dead made national news. His band had doubts about playing with him again and, yet, here they are. They know his crime. They know what he did. But Tim has been "forgiven".


William Control

This one is a tough one for me to talk about. I know a couple of his victims. I've been friends with one of his victims for almost ten years now. I was friends with one of his fans. Hell, I WAS a fan of Control. Last summer, news broke out that he ran a sex cult where he abused and raped his victims in the guise of BDSM.

If you don't know who Control is he was the lead singer of the emo band, Aiden. If you were a teen in the early 2000s and liked MCR then there's a chance you liked Aiden.

Back to his case, his victims have spoken out against Control. His fans denied that he'd do this so his victims came with proof. His then wife denied that he did these things to protect their son then she divorced him and spoke out against the abuse that she received at his hands. All of this proof should have left Control done and over, right? Nope. Fans are still protecting him. Control is still making music. He's lied about being number one on Billboard also but that's not a big deal. Control makes videos mocking his victims. He's far from over, sadly.


Let's move onto the influencers!

Jeffree Star

I don't have to talk about him and his dealings. I was actually in my early 20s when he was super popular on MySpace and I've seen all of his mess firsthand. We know he's been cancelled but his makeup is always selling out.

Shane Dawson

Again, don't have to talk about him. We know everything he's done but yet...he still has a huge fanbase. His makeup line just sold out weeks ago. Cancel culture said he was done and...he's not.

Nikita Dragun

Nikita famously was one of the ones in that middle fingers picture with Manny MUA, Laura Lee and some other person and she was cancelled. She's been accused of being anti-black. I don't know everything she's done but I do know that she's been cancelled so many times yet she has a makeup line, still has millions of followers on Instagram and, recently, partnered with Forever 21 on Instagram for some brand.

There's more BUT THAT'S SO MANY INFLUENCERS. I literally did the first three that popped in my head.


So, what's the point of this thread? Cancel culture is...pointless. Recently, Drake got booed offstage and Tyler The Creator said it was like witnessing cancel culture in real life. Cancel culture doesn't do anything. As you can see, these people are still doing whatever they want. Three of them have been found guilty by the law and they still have fans. One of them literally raped people and he has still has fans. There was video proof of this...and he still has fans.

I am not saying "oh don't do this and don't do that" but realize that "oh they're cancelled" doesn't do anything, obviously. Why? Because the people that cancel a person are not really a fan to begin with or they're not a major fan. If we want something done then let's talk openly about why this is wrong. We shouldn't pick and choose who is cancelled based on who we like either. For example, Nick Carter had a couple of DUIs but he's still touring with BSB and he was on TV then Kangin...which we all know did the same thing and yet we cancelled him. Nick and Kangin did the same thing but yet we ignore Nick because he's in BSB. I'm not saying we should forgive Kangin because I don't care if you do or don't. But that's just an example.

There's a ton of people I can talk about but the main point is let's talk about why something is bad. Also, let's talk about we as a society can do to raise awareness of something like battered women. The main reason these people are still successful is because their fans do not care at the end of the day. That's just it.

 

[rananicolee]

I did not include any Korean celebrities because that's another topic for another day. I'm still sick and I wanna go back to bed but I can't.

 

[MVSica]

Cancel culture is to me, far worse than the reality of having bad people in this world... the mob mentality is disturbing no matter how you look at it.

 

[rananicolee]

Cancel culture is to me, far worse than the reality of having bad people in this world... the mob mentality is disturbing no matter how you look at it.

That’s exactly how I feel. Mob mentality is toxic. I’ve witnessed this on two sides of BigBang’s fandom. If you’re not for OT5 then you’re not a fan and you will get mass blocked. If you’re not for OT4 then you get mass dragged.

 

[MVSica]

That’s exactly how I feel. Mob mentality is toxic. I’ve witnessed this on two sides of BigBang’s fandom. If you’re not for OT5 then you’re not a fan and you will get mass blocked. If you’re not for OT4 then you get mass dragged.

Yeah that's true... I'm not sure what effect a single fan canceling Big Bang would have anyways... but canceling spreads its way to people it can destroy like small businesses and regular people... just a messy and uncomfortable way for a society to function.

 

[Elessar]

So the problem with cancel culture is that it doesn't matter the crimes or the horrendous things that trash people do, these will always continue to have stupid fans who support them no matter what? The problem is not cancel culture then but the brainless people who continue to support criminals and bad people.

 

[rananicolee]

So the problem with cancel culture is that it doesn't matter the crimes or the horrendous things that trash people do, these will always continue to have stupid fans who support them no matter what? The problem is not cancel culture then but the brainless people who continue to support criminals and bad people.

The problem with cancel culture is that it doesn’t actually work. We can cancel Tim Lambesis all day and night but he will remain in the music industry because he feels his crime is paid for. Cancel culture lately is more of a mob mentality especially on Twitter. The title of the thread was a way to get people to read plus a long title would have put me to sleep.

 

[rananicolee]

Yeah that's true... I'm not sure what effect a single fan canceling Big Bang would have anyways... but canceling spreads its way to people it can destroy like small businesses and regular people... just a messy and uncomfortable way for a society to function.

I think instead of cancelling we need to have a discussion like I said. I’ve seen people cancel someone and they only did it because their friend did it. But yeah I agree with you.

 

[rananicolee]

I also wanted to point out something that people are failing to realize especially within the music industry and cancel culture. The music industry backs most of these people.

I'm always going to use Tim as a basis and metal because I know the metal industry very well. As I Lay Dying just released an album in September which was released through a label called Nuclear Blast. Nuclear is supporting As I Lay Dying and their lead singer.

As individuals we can cancel any band that we want and say we're done but the music industry won't care. In my opinion, Tim Lambesis should not have been forgiven so easily. He should not have been able to release music based on his crime of wanting his wife dead. But many people in the music industry and these labels don't care what we think. They will always support these people.

Also the tour promoters and the booking agencies support Tim Lambesis simply because they have been touring. They are headliners.

Tim Lambesis and Chris Brown should have been done for but I failed to mention it's not just the fans but the industry that is supporting these people. And that's my bad.

 

[Cat Ears]

Agreed. I actually find it funny how canceling doesn't work. At the end of the day a lot of people don't care if someone's been canceled. Its really just SJWs and millennials on Twitter who have extreme views and think that they're making difference by cancelling people.

I also think that so many people have been canceled at this point that most people don't think the act of canceling should be taken seriously.

 

[Pyron]

I guess it's a natural form of boycotting with social media where you don't need to commit much and still feel like you are protesting for some outrageous act. I guess this can get blurry and mix together with # activism/vigilantism, online shaming, online bullying, deplatforming, and so on.

It sux when it just become online mob lynching to misunderstood people while may not be that effective against real offenders.

EDIT: Opsie, pressed the button before completing my post.

Just like protests and boycotting, it's a mixed bag and may not bring any real result and feel useless. I guess it's more a form of expressing outrage on individual level and spread awareness of issue instead of just seeking results. It may be some form of catharsis for "protesters" as well, so not that useless for them as they may just wanna express themselves even if misguided.

Of course discussing at length and rationally about those issues is the right way, but again this is a cheap form to express discontent and most people will just spend the least amount of work to do so and this is what we get on social media which is already pretty lazy-friendly.

 

[rananicolee]

I guess it's a natural form of boycotting with social media where you don't need to commit much and still feel like you are protesting for some outrageous act. I guess this can get blurry and mix together with # activism/vigilantism, online shaming, online bullying, deplatforming, and so on.

It sux when it just become online mob lynching to misunderstood people while may not be that effective against real offenders.

EDIT: Opsie, pressed the button before completing my post.

Just like protests and boycotting, it's a mixed bag and may not bring any real result and feel useless. I guess it's more a form of expressing outrage on individual level and spread awareness of issue instead of just seeking results. It may be some form of catharsis for "protesters" as well, so not that useless for them as they may just wanna express themselves even if misguided.

Of course discussing at length and rationally about those issues is the right way, but again this is a cheap form to express discontent and most people will just spend the least amount of work to do so and this is what we get on social media which is already pretty lazy-friendly.

You said exactly what I was thinking. I honestly made this thread after I woke up and it really came from nothing. I honestly feel cancel culture does nothing in the grand scheme of things. Like I said earlier, we can cancel people day and night but, at the end of the day, they're still going to go into their careers.

I think opening up a topic about most of these subjects and what they do is best because people love having their "____ is over" parties without any real cause. I find more and more that non-fans are making the most noise than fans do.

Instead of cancelling people because it really doesn't do much since you're not the main consumer then talk to the people that book these artists and ask why. Booking agents and promoters have a lot more power than people realize. For example, NOFX made a horrible comment about the Vegas shooting and the remainder of their tour was cancelled by the venues. Cancel culture and people on the internet didn't do that; the booking agents did that. You gotta hit them where they hurt.

 

[DR. K💉M 👄]

Help the abused? Cleaning the mess by putting the offenders in jail is one of the best help.

If its about ignorant statements/actions then I get it. People can learn and grow so cancelling them(or trying to gang up) is too much. Some of your post however is dealing with conscious crimes. Even if you aren't directly taking about seungri, if we were to apply your points to him then it means cancelling him is useless too...

Not cancel people over rape, abuse?? Nope they deserve to be in jail. Yes its useless because fans are unsympathetic unless it happens to their own family, but doesn't mean we should stop trying. I personally don't think spreading awareness 'instead' is it, when you could be and should be doing both.

I know you're not telling us what to do or not do, but your post is also demotivating and is kinda suggesting that bc it's useless, and that's how it will always be, we should stop trying instead of fighting it. I'd rather see a change even if it takes more time and effort.

(Also kangin and nick have different audiences from different cultures?)

 

[rananicolee]

Help the abused? Cleaning the mess by putting the offenders in jail is one of the best help.

If its about ignorant statements/actions then I get it. People can learn and grow so cancelling them(or trying to gang up) is too much. Some of your post however is dealing with conscious crimes. Even if you aren't directly taking about seungri, if we were to apply your points to him then it means cancelling him is useless too...

Not cancel people over rape, abuse?? Nope they deserve to be in jail. Yes its useless because fans are unsympathetic unless it happens to their own family, but doesn't mean we should stop trying. I personally don't think spreading awareness 'instead' is it, when you could be and should be doing both.

I know you're not telling us what to do or not do, but your post is also demotivating and is kinda suggesting that bc it's useless, and that's how it will always be, we should stop trying instead of fighting it. I'd rather see a change even if it takes more time and effort.

(Also kangin and nick have different audiences from different cultures?)

Honestly, Seungri was not in my mind when I made this thread. But as you can see cancelling him didn't really do much. He still has very loud fans who defend him to this day, sadly. But this wasn't about him which is why I didn't delve into him. The references of the Korean celebrities were to have people understand since I know most of you don't know who Tim Lambesis and William Control are. I used them as reference points.

I never really said NOT TO CANCEL. I really said yeah do it but at the end of the day it doesn't help especially with these individuals. Why? Because they're gonna do what they want to do.

The problem with cancelling Tim is that it didn't work then and it doesn't work now. He's been in jail. He served his time which was two years. He was sentenced for six but he got parole. So many people have tried to stop his own band from even releasing music with him but it didn't work. He's still on tour even after people "cancelled" him. Tim is...more or less the main reason I made this thread. He's been out for three years and he's still doing what he wants. Why? He feels his sins are paid for and that he should be forgiven. Metal artists have forgiven him.

William Control...sadly hasn't been to jail. My own friends, his victims, have tried to put him away but the police have done nothing. He's mocked all of his victims on his YouTube channel. He has a very small fandom. I'm talking less than 50k followers on Instagram. He released music mere months after his accusations. The evidence is all there. He's been cancelled but he's out here making music like nothing happened. Why doesn't this work for him? Even his small fandom doesn't see it and he's a confirmed narcissist. Yes, Control should be done with. I believe no one should listen to his music. He should be in jail but he's not.

Sometimes it does work but other times it doesn't. But, most of the time, what I'm seeing is "XYZ is cancelled" then I see the next day no one is talking about it again.

Kangin and Nick both have American fans. I wasn't really talking about the Korean fans since they don't care for him. I'm talking about Western fans, mainly. And again that was only an example since people don't care about Nick's DUIs and quickly forgave him about his rape accusations. That's picking and choosing. If XYZ is done for you then so should ABC.

 

[forevermusedx]

Help the abused? Cleaning the mess by putting the offenders in jail is one of the best help.

If its about ignorant statements/actions then I get it. People can learn and grow so cancelling them(or trying to gang up) is too much. Some of your post however is dealing with conscious crimes. Even if you aren't directly taking about seungri, if we were to apply your points to him then it means cancelling him is useless too...

Not cancel people over rape, abuse?? Nope they deserve to be in jail. Yes its useless because fans are unsympathetic unless it happens to their own family, but doesn't mean we should stop trying. I personally don't think spreading awareness 'instead' is it, when you could be and should be doing both.

I know you're not telling us what to do or not do, but your post is also demotivating and is kinda suggesting that bc it's useless, and that's how it will always be, we should stop trying instead of fighting it. I'd rather see a change even if it takes more time and effort.

(Also kangin and nick have different audiences from different cultures?)

This isn’t about Seungri. The entire post is about other celebrities and how basically cancelling doesn’t do anything, and probably never will. There are literal “insert celebrity here has mental illness/was drunk/is a good person despite this!!!” fans and that goes for any celebrity. Rana isn’t talking about Korean celebrities, she’s making references to them to help people understand.

 

[rananicolee]

Here's an interesting article that I just found.
I forgot Louis CK because...I literally forgot this man existed.

Disgraced comedian Louis CK is going on a world tour — so much for cancel culture

Now that he's returning to the stage, it raises questions about the effectiveness of "cancel culture."

www.cnbc.com

"“In this day of the 24-hour news cycle, stories that would have dominated a year’s worth of media coverage a decade ago are breezed past within a day,” Palm said. “People lose track of time, and they forget how bad the crimes were, so they figure it’s probably been long enough… we should just be honest and call it ‘time-out culture.’” "

The reason I used people with heavy crimes is because I feel those people should have been done for. They are what I feel cancel culture should be about instead of "cancelling" Lizzo for wanting to be #1 or "cancelling" some band because they didn't cater to another band. Yet these people have always been cancelled and they're still here when they shouldn't be. And I shouldn't have to say this. But I'm far from a Seungri fan. I feel he should be in prison and never be heard from again. I'm tired of his ugly face in the news.

 

[DR. K💉M 👄]

This isn’t about Seungri. The entire post is about other celebrities and how basically cancelling doesn’t do anything, and probably never will. There are literal “insert celebrity here has mental illness/was drunk/is a good person despite this!!!” fans and that goes for any celebrity. Rana isn’t talking about Korean celebrities, she’s making references to them to help people understand.

Yes that was an example bc kpop fans can relate more. Just bc his fans still support him doesn't mean we should stop trying. You should read my whole post which pretty agrees that yeah fans will keep supporting despite.

 

[DR. K💉M 👄]

Honestly, Seungri was not in my mind when I made this thread. But as you can see cancelling him didn't really do much. He still has very loud fans who defend him to this day, sadly. But this wasn't about him which is why I didn't delve into him. The references of the Korean celebrities were to have people understand since I know most of you don't know who Tim Lambesis and William Control are. I used them as reference points.

I never really said NOT TO CANCEL. I really said yeah do it but at the end of the day it doesn't help especially with these individuals. Why? Because they're gonna do what they want to do.

The problem with cancelling Tim is that it didn't work then and it doesn't work now. He's been in jail. He served his time which was two years. He was sentenced for six but he got parole. So many people have tried to stop his own band from even releasing music with him but it didn't work. He's still on tour even after people "cancelled" him. Tim is...more or less the main reason I made this thread. He's been out for three years and he's still doing what he wants. Why? He feels his sins are paid for and that he should be forgiven. Metal artists have forgiven him.

William Control...sadly hasn't been to jail. My own friends, his victims, have tried to put him away but the police have done nothing. He's mocked all of his victims on his YouTube channel. He has a very small fandom. I'm talking less than 50k followers on Instagram. He released music mere months after his accusations. The evidence is all there. He's been cancelled but he's out here making music like nothing happened. Why doesn't this work for him? Even his small fandom doesn't see it and he's a confirmed narcissist. Yes, Control should be done with. I believe no one should listen to his music. He should be in jail but he's not.

Sometimes it does work but other times it doesn't. But, most of the time, what I'm seeing is "XYZ is cancelled" then I see the next day no one is talking about it again.

Kangin and Nick both have American fans. I wasn't really talking about the Korean fans since they don't care for him. I'm talking about Western fans, mainly. And again that was only an example since people don't care about Nick's DUIs and quickly forgave him about his rape accusations. That's picking and choosing. If XYZ is done for you then so should ABC.

If you read my post then youd know that I addressed that you were not telling us what to do or what not to already?

Seungri was an example.
Im not sure what this reply has anything to do with what I just addressed which is pretty much about looking for an eventual change in this support mentality regarding criminal acts and to be more motivated about it(even if it doesn't work currently as I agreed). You just gave me more examples instead.

While you're trying to be neutral about this and saying that yeah criminals should not be supported but it doesn't happen, you're also calling mob mentality toxic in your other post. What's the point of giving us a bunch of examples about what we already know when you're not drawing any proper conclusion from it. So I assumed from your writing that the conclusion was we should be focusing on 'helping' the victims instead, and this is what im referring to. I don't agree with this, as I think we should be doing both and getting the offenders punished is often the best help.

 

[rananicolee]

If you read my post then youd know that I addressed that you were not telling us what to do or what not to already?

Seungri was an example.
Im not sure what this reply has anything to do with what I just addressed which is pretty much about looking for an eventual change in this support mentality regarding criminal acts and to be more motivated about it(even if it doesn't work currently as I agreed). You just gave me more examples instead.

While you're trying to be neutral about this and saying that yeah criminals should not be supported but it doesn't happen, you're also calling mob mentality toxic in your other post. What's the point of giving us a bunch of examples about what we already know when you're not drawing any proper conclusion from it. So I assumed from your writing that the conclusion was we should be focusing on 'helping' the victims instead, and this is what im referring to. I don't agree with this, as I think we should be doing both and getting the offenders punished is often the best help.

And that's fine that you don't agree with that. It is. I understand your point completely.

My conclusion is this: While we have every right to no longer support anyone who has done horrendous acts, we also have the right to speak out about these acts instead. I feel if we put more spotlight on stories of the abused with helping people also then the time for these sick people to have their careers ended will come. I think if we talk about the victims instead of the criminals more then fans will realize that these people should not be supported. I think if we talk about the actions then the consequences will come.

And I do believe in not supporting anyone you feel is a terrible person. I just think more action than more talk is what we need. I'm not saying you as an individual is all talk but the majority I see is just talk.

 

[DR. K💉M 👄]

And that's fine that you don't agree with that. It is. I understand your point completely.

My conclusion is this: While we have every right to no longer support anyone who has done horrendous acts, we also have the right to speak out about these acts instead. I feel if we put more spotlight on stories of the abused with helping people also then the time for these sick people to have their careers ended will come. I think if we talk about the victims instead of the criminals more then fans will realize that these people should not be supported. I think if we talk about the actions then the consequences will come.

And I do believe in not supporting anyone you feel is a terrible person. I just think more action than more talk is what we need. I'm not saying you as an individual is all talk but the majority I see is just talk.

Well that's a very nice conclusion. That I can agree with. If we are to gang up in the end, it could be a smarter choice to actually use some of that energy in portraying the victims story through media. Media is very powerful in influencing opinions in the end. However often the victims do not want to come out or the powerful ones stop it from happening. But if eventually people started to volunteer into speaking up, it could be a great start.