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EDITORIAL: “South Korea & the Idol Graduation System: A History of SM Entertainment Graduational Groups and Their Failure to Launch”
Written by: Polaris_Tae
The graduation system is not a foreign concept to most people familiar with Japanese idols, as many popular idol groups, especially female idols such as AKB48 or Morning Musume's various incarnations, have heavily employed the system as a part of their group concept. However, when it comes to K-pop, the various prominent idol groups that included the concept of graduation, have either disbanded or re-formed into groups with fixed permanent line-ups. Most of the time, this concept was created as an excuse for management failures, as seen in the case of 9MUSES and their management STAR EMPIRE. However, there were often cases of idol groups specifically crafted to promote under this concept. This can often be seen in many of SM Entertainment's groups throughout the years.
Super Junior '05
The earliest concept of a graduation system within the Korean idol industry reportedly began with h.o.t during the 1990s. There were discussions regarding whether the group should have a graduation system. However, the group was so immensely popular, that the company ultimately decided to debut the group with a fixed line-up. Throughout the years, SM has tried multiple times to create a group that has the concept of graduation at its core but has failed time and time again. This can be seen in two of their post-2000 boy groups: SUPER JUNIOR & NCT.
SUPER JUNIOR are now considered veterans within the current idol industry. However, SM's initial plan for the group was to create a supergroup that would function similarly to Japan's Morning Musume. Within this format, various group members would be added and graduate at the behest of the agency (or members themselves). Through this concept — in an attempt to keep the group fresh and constantly active — the company would consistently add new trainees to the group.
Through this concept, the company would not need to worry about military enlistments, or — to a lesser extent — the personal lives of the group members. As they would be far more disposable than members within groups with a fixed line-up. The company could just decide to force the graduation of a member if a controversy were to arise, and the group could continue group activities even with some of its members undertaking military service duties.
Through their initial group concept, if SUPER JUNIOR '05 were to continue adding members, they would have enough members to continue without a few of the members. Their initial aim for the group was to have group members be active throughout all sectors of the South Korean entertainment industry. This can be seen in the way that the company often pushed the members of SUPER JUNIOR into individual activities such as radio & television hosting, as well as acting far more than many of their future hoobae groups. However, SUPER JUNIOR — just like h.o.t before them — had proven to be too popular for their own good. As they would become a fixed unit following the addition of Kyuhyun in 2006.
SUPER JUNIOR-M concept photos for their 3rd mini-album, SWING
Then, in 2007, SM was seeking to add two more members to the group, Henry, a Taiwanese-Canadian, who had been featured in the music video for their latest track, 'Don't Don' & Zhou Mi, from mainland China. However, unlike Kyuhyun, who had seemingly been added to the group with very little protest, the protests for the two foreign pre-debut members did not seem to die down. Instead, the 'Only13' movement was created. Through this protest movement, fans purchased shares within SM Entertainment to put pressure on the company and keep the two foreign members out of the group. As a result, the company finally caved to the fans' demands and instead added Zhou Mi & Henry exclusively to the group's Chinese sub-group, SUPER JUNIOR M. This would effectively place the two idols in limbo for each of their respective careers as part of the group up until their respective solo debuts starting from around 2014.
SUPER JUNIOR would go on an effective military-induced hiatus from around 2011 up until 2014 as the members each sought to complete their mandatory military service. The two SUPER JUNIOR-M members would be caught in the crosshairs as the main group, — along with SUPER JUNIOR-M — would be unable to promote until each of the Korean members had completed their service. During this, Eunhyuk, who was both a member of SUPER JUNIOR-M & was the acting representative of SUPER JUNIOR member at the time, was forced to re-iterate that Henry and Zhou Mi would not be added to the main SUPER JUNIOR group, but would stay as exclusive members of SUPER JUNIOR-M instead.
To make matters worse, in 2011, Han Geng, the leader of SUPER JUNIOR-M at the time had officially filed an injunction for the suspension of his exclusive contract with SM after years of mistreatment, yet again adding more stress onto the group's already rocky career and, potentially, adding to the Xenophobia experienced by the two remaining foreign members. The group's last official comeback was in 2014 with their 3rd EP, Swing which would also be the last time Henry would promote as a member of SUPER JUNIOR-M. As of 2023, SUPER JUNIOR has officially promoted themselves as a 9-member group. Thus, showing that the Only13 movement had almost no ground to stand on in the first place. Kibum & Han Geng have not been members of the group 2009, Kangin left the group — and the Entertainment Industry — following his 3rd DUI, while Sungmin has not actively promoted with SUPER JUNIOR since 2015, after facing backlash from his marriage.
The most recent attempt at a graduation concept by SM Entertainment was through the creation of NCT Dream in 2016. This group was established as the third official sub-unit of NCT. Which began as SM Entertainment's first official rotational group. Where group members would debut into multiple different sub-units. NCT Dream was one such sub-unit. This group would function similarly to that of Sakura Gakuin. Where the younger members of the wider NCT supergroup would promote as members of NCT Dream up until a certain age. In NCT Dream's case, they would graduate following their coming-of-age (19 years old). Following this, the members would 'graduate' from the group and be transferred into other groups within the NCT brand.
This concept, however, would prove to be too traumatic for the group members and SM would rescind the concept of graduation in 2020, two years after Mark's initial departure in 2018. Following this, NCT Dream would then become a fixed unit and Mark would re-join NCT Dream. In NCT Dream's case, the decision by SM Entertainment to make the group a fixed unit had both positive and negative effects on the overall career trajectory of some of its members. In the case of Mark and Haechan, it resulted in the two being committed to two — or in the case of Mark, three — separate groups: NCT Dream, as well as NCT127; which also meant that they would have to do twice the work than any other NCT member. Even Winwin, who was an initial NCT127 member, would eventually unofficially leave the group following the decision to add the idol to the NCT-associated Chinese boy group, WayV.
This change, however, did help to prevent the deterioration of the mental health of the group members from what they consider to be a 'traumatic' group concept. As they had grown close to one another while promoting under the label of NCT Dream. The term 'graduation' would eventually become a word that the members had begun to associate with dread.
NCT2020 concept images for RESONANCE PART 1
SM has been trying to form a successful group with the graduation concept for almost 30 years. However, they have yet to accomplish this goal and have seemingly given up on this concept for — at least — the near future. They have instead worked towards establishing groups with closely aligning concepts such as rotational groups. This can be seen in the case of NCT, where SM was still able to create a supergroup, but with fixed units rather than an ever-rotating roster. This was further established through the company's decision to officially end the expansion of NCT with their 6th and final group, NCT Tokyo in 2023.
It can be seen through these examples, that while SM Entertainment — or rather, their former CEO, Lee Soo-man — has always danced around the idea of debuting a full graduational group, they have been unsuccessful in their aims to establish one. The K-pop-consuming culture within South Korea just does not seem to be very receptive to the concept, despite their penchant for solo-stanning. Even NCT, which is the closest thing that SM has to a graduational group right now, will officially be ending their infinite expansion in 2024 with the debut of its final sub-group, NCT Wish. Despite this, it can be concluded that, while we may not see a mainstream graduational concept within the Kpop industry anytime soon, there is some hope for the future for groups to debut under alternative concepts parallel to this. NCT's rotational group system, or the system of debuting temporary groups as seen from Produce101 can be seen as a viable alternative.
____________________________
GRAPHICS BY: @yerm
Written by: Polaris_Tae
The graduation system is not a foreign concept to most people familiar with Japanese idols, as many popular idol groups, especially female idols such as AKB48 or Morning Musume's various incarnations, have heavily employed the system as a part of their group concept. However, when it comes to K-pop, the various prominent idol groups that included the concept of graduation, have either disbanded or re-formed into groups with fixed permanent line-ups. Most of the time, this concept was created as an excuse for management failures, as seen in the case of 9MUSES and their management STAR EMPIRE. However, there were often cases of idol groups specifically crafted to promote under this concept. This can often be seen in many of SM Entertainment's groups throughout the years.
Super Junior '05
The earliest concept of a graduation system within the Korean idol industry reportedly began with h.o.t during the 1990s. There were discussions regarding whether the group should have a graduation system. However, the group was so immensely popular, that the company ultimately decided to debut the group with a fixed line-up. Throughout the years, SM has tried multiple times to create a group that has the concept of graduation at its core but has failed time and time again. This can be seen in two of their post-2000 boy groups: SUPER JUNIOR & NCT.
SUPER JUNIOR are now considered veterans within the current idol industry. However, SM's initial plan for the group was to create a supergroup that would function similarly to Japan's Morning Musume. Within this format, various group members would be added and graduate at the behest of the agency (or members themselves). Through this concept — in an attempt to keep the group fresh and constantly active — the company would consistently add new trainees to the group.
Through this concept, the company would not need to worry about military enlistments, or — to a lesser extent — the personal lives of the group members. As they would be far more disposable than members within groups with a fixed line-up. The company could just decide to force the graduation of a member if a controversy were to arise, and the group could continue group activities even with some of its members undertaking military service duties.
Through their initial group concept, if SUPER JUNIOR '05 were to continue adding members, they would have enough members to continue without a few of the members. Their initial aim for the group was to have group members be active throughout all sectors of the South Korean entertainment industry. This can be seen in the way that the company often pushed the members of SUPER JUNIOR into individual activities such as radio & television hosting, as well as acting far more than many of their future hoobae groups. However, SUPER JUNIOR — just like h.o.t before them — had proven to be too popular for their own good. As they would become a fixed unit following the addition of Kyuhyun in 2006.
SUPER JUNIOR-M concept photos for their 3rd mini-album, SWING
Then, in 2007, SM was seeking to add two more members to the group, Henry, a Taiwanese-Canadian, who had been featured in the music video for their latest track, 'Don't Don' & Zhou Mi, from mainland China. However, unlike Kyuhyun, who had seemingly been added to the group with very little protest, the protests for the two foreign pre-debut members did not seem to die down. Instead, the 'Only13' movement was created. Through this protest movement, fans purchased shares within SM Entertainment to put pressure on the company and keep the two foreign members out of the group. As a result, the company finally caved to the fans' demands and instead added Zhou Mi & Henry exclusively to the group's Chinese sub-group, SUPER JUNIOR M. This would effectively place the two idols in limbo for each of their respective careers as part of the group up until their respective solo debuts starting from around 2014.
SUPER JUNIOR would go on an effective military-induced hiatus from around 2011 up until 2014 as the members each sought to complete their mandatory military service. The two SUPER JUNIOR-M members would be caught in the crosshairs as the main group, — along with SUPER JUNIOR-M — would be unable to promote until each of the Korean members had completed their service. During this, Eunhyuk, who was both a member of SUPER JUNIOR-M & was the acting representative of SUPER JUNIOR member at the time, was forced to re-iterate that Henry and Zhou Mi would not be added to the main SUPER JUNIOR group, but would stay as exclusive members of SUPER JUNIOR-M instead.
To make matters worse, in 2011, Han Geng, the leader of SUPER JUNIOR-M at the time had officially filed an injunction for the suspension of his exclusive contract with SM after years of mistreatment, yet again adding more stress onto the group's already rocky career and, potentially, adding to the Xenophobia experienced by the two remaining foreign members. The group's last official comeback was in 2014 with their 3rd EP, Swing which would also be the last time Henry would promote as a member of SUPER JUNIOR-M. As of 2023, SUPER JUNIOR has officially promoted themselves as a 9-member group. Thus, showing that the Only13 movement had almost no ground to stand on in the first place. Kibum & Han Geng have not been members of the group 2009, Kangin left the group — and the Entertainment Industry — following his 3rd DUI, while Sungmin has not actively promoted with SUPER JUNIOR since 2015, after facing backlash from his marriage.
The most recent attempt at a graduation concept by SM Entertainment was through the creation of NCT Dream in 2016. This group was established as the third official sub-unit of NCT. Which began as SM Entertainment's first official rotational group. Where group members would debut into multiple different sub-units. NCT Dream was one such sub-unit. This group would function similarly to that of Sakura Gakuin. Where the younger members of the wider NCT supergroup would promote as members of NCT Dream up until a certain age. In NCT Dream's case, they would graduate following their coming-of-age (19 years old). Following this, the members would 'graduate' from the group and be transferred into other groups within the NCT brand.
This concept, however, would prove to be too traumatic for the group members and SM would rescind the concept of graduation in 2020, two years after Mark's initial departure in 2018. Following this, NCT Dream would then become a fixed unit and Mark would re-join NCT Dream. In NCT Dream's case, the decision by SM Entertainment to make the group a fixed unit had both positive and negative effects on the overall career trajectory of some of its members. In the case of Mark and Haechan, it resulted in the two being committed to two — or in the case of Mark, three — separate groups: NCT Dream, as well as NCT127; which also meant that they would have to do twice the work than any other NCT member. Even Winwin, who was an initial NCT127 member, would eventually unofficially leave the group following the decision to add the idol to the NCT-associated Chinese boy group, WayV.
This change, however, did help to prevent the deterioration of the mental health of the group members from what they consider to be a 'traumatic' group concept. As they had grown close to one another while promoting under the label of NCT Dream. The term 'graduation' would eventually become a word that the members had begun to associate with dread.
NCT2020 concept images for RESONANCE PART 1
SM has been trying to form a successful group with the graduation concept for almost 30 years. However, they have yet to accomplish this goal and have seemingly given up on this concept for — at least — the near future. They have instead worked towards establishing groups with closely aligning concepts such as rotational groups. This can be seen in the case of NCT, where SM was still able to create a supergroup, but with fixed units rather than an ever-rotating roster. This was further established through the company's decision to officially end the expansion of NCT with their 6th and final group, NCT Tokyo in 2023.
It can be seen through these examples, that while SM Entertainment — or rather, their former CEO, Lee Soo-man — has always danced around the idea of debuting a full graduational group, they have been unsuccessful in their aims to establish one. The K-pop-consuming culture within South Korea just does not seem to be very receptive to the concept, despite their penchant for solo-stanning. Even NCT, which is the closest thing that SM has to a graduational group right now, will officially be ending their infinite expansion in 2024 with the debut of its final sub-group, NCT Wish. Despite this, it can be concluded that, while we may not see a mainstream graduational concept within the Kpop industry anytime soon, there is some hope for the future for groups to debut under alternative concepts parallel to this. NCT's rotational group system, or the system of debuting temporary groups as seen from Produce101 can be seen as a viable alternative.
____________________________
GRAPHICS BY: @yerm
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Hmmm interesting. SM should just let it rest if they still want to have a graduation group. The last group I followed with a graduation group started off well but spiraled down quickly, being After School. If I remember correctly, Uee who "graduated" from After School didn't even get a proper graduation ceremony. 
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This is an interesting read.
Even though I'm an old K-pop fan, I only found out just now from this article that SuJu was originally going to use graduation system. I thought they were a fixed-member group ever since the start.
Honestly, I think the fault is not entirely to be put on SME's (or any company's) shoulder. I think the fandom culture in K-pop has been proven to not fit with the graduation system/concept. The whole "Only13" movement is a clear indication of that. (Also, the addition of Yeri and the hate she got further proves that K-pop fans only accept fixed member group system from this point forward.)
I think they should ditch the whole graduation concept. It's not gonna work for K-pop industry. Especially not with the way most K-pop companies (if not all) always mistreating their own artists and idols. It's gonna be a huge mess if they keep this up.
Even though I'm an old K-pop fan, I only found out just now from this article that SuJu was originally going to use graduation system. I thought they were a fixed-member group ever since the start.
Honestly, I think the fault is not entirely to be put on SME's (or any company's) shoulder. I think the fandom culture in K-pop has been proven to not fit with the graduation system/concept. The whole "Only13" movement is a clear indication of that. (Also, the addition of Yeri and the hate she got further proves that K-pop fans only accept fixed member group system from this point forward.)
I think they should ditch the whole graduation concept. It's not gonna work for K-pop industry. Especially not with the way most K-pop companies (if not all) always mistreating their own artists and idols. It's gonna be a huge mess if they keep this up.
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Kahi put her 2 cents about the graduation system too. Saying it lacks the “together until the end” mindset which many other groups have with its members. She pointed out the lack of group spirit as a shortcoming; which I could not agree more.
Kahi Reveals Her Thoughts on After School's Graduation System | Soompi
Kahi revealed her thoughts on her previous girl group After School's graduation system on "Beatles Code 3D". She admitted that she only found out about
www.soompi.com
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All the more reasons to just retire the whole idea.Kahi put her 2 cents about the graduation system too. Saying it lacks the “together until the end” mindset which many other groups have with its members. She pointed out the lack of group spirit as a shortcoming; which I could not agree more.
Kahi Reveals Her Thoughts on After School's Graduation System | Soompi
Kahi revealed her thoughts on her previous girl group After School's graduation system on "Beatles Code 3D". She admitted that she only found out about
This system may only work for J-pop groups like AKB (for some reasons unknown to me yet). I don't understand why some K-pop companies still want to implement this.
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To sum it up
I will forever be filthy about how Pledis mistreated the latter members of After School. Kahi was the centerpiece who held the group together and when she graduated and the original CEO of Pledis left that really spelled the end of After School.
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yep. I agree somewhat. In the Kpop industry, it's often more common to get attached to a group and their dynamic over any one single member that can be seen in Jpop and their focus on specific members such as 48G with their centre picks and oshis. I'd say this could've potentially been the driving factor that pushed hardcore Suju fans into pushing forward the 'Only 13' movement as well.
However, I would like to see a group that successfully pulls off this concept and sticks to it. Or even an alternate concept such as NCT's OG infinite-expansion instead
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it seems like limelight will try the infinite member concept next... considering they're from a smaller company it's very likely they will drop this idea along the way though
I believe jayden jeong also has similar aspirations as lee sooman did to have this concept work for kpop, he is gradually trying it out although he's been mainly focusing on subunits, first with loona and now tripleS, I believe his endgame is to go for an infinite members group... time will tell
I believe jayden jeong also has similar aspirations as lee sooman did to have this concept work for kpop, he is gradually trying it out although he's been mainly focusing on subunits, first with loona and now tripleS, I believe his endgame is to go for an infinite members group... time will tell
Thanks for the interesting write-up!
Always found it so fascinating how receptive Korean fans are to the graduation system while it works so well in Japan. I'm not sure what exact differences from the two countries' idol systems has led to such opposing view points, but it seems like for better or for worse, we're never going to get a full-on successful graduation system in K-pop.
Always found it so fascinating how receptive Korean fans are to the graduation system while it works so well in Japan. I'm not sure what exact differences from the two countries' idol systems has led to such opposing view points, but it seems like for better or for worse, we're never going to get a full-on successful graduation system in K-pop.
babyv004
Nugui just wanna state that this was not exactly true. At beginning the movement was called "Only12" and the fans only fully accepted kyuhyun as a suju member after his accident in 2007 where he almost died.
Also if i recall correctely the members themselves confesses that their relationship with kyuhyun in the beginning was kinda bad bc those rotative system promote competition between the members since they are always expecting to be replaced at any time.
After added Kyu, SM promised to the fans the group will not be rotative anymore but then they decided to bring 2 more members so i kinda get why the fans got so defensive at the time. I would not trust SM words either
The "Only13" movement made sense at time but after many years the fans still behaving like sh*t to henry and zhoumi when it was pretty obvious that suju would never go back to be rotative or to add more new members to sub-units was what never made sense to me.
I really felt sorry for them. Henry and Zhoumi got so much unnecessary hate when suju members love them both and wanted them more involved in the group activities but bc elf never accepted them they never could
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Yep I did have the lack of Kyuhyun's acceptance in there initially. However, some things needed to be cut bc it was simply getting too long.i just wanna state that this was not exactly true. At beginning the movement was called "Only12" and the fans only fully accepted kyuhyun as a suju member after his accident in 2007 where he almost died.
Also if i recall correctely the members themselves confesses that their relationship with kyuhyun in the beginning was kinda bad bc those rotative system promote competition between the members since they are always expecting to be replaced at any time.
After added Kyu, SM promised to the fans the group will not be rotative anymore but then they decided to bring 2 more members so i kinda get why the fans got so defensive at the time. I would not trust SM words either
The "Only13" movement made sense at time but after many years the fans still behaving like sh*t to henry and zhoumi when it was pretty obvious that suju would never go back to be rotative or to add more new members to sub-units was what never made sense to me.
I really felt sorry for them. Henry and Zhoumi got so much unnecessary hate when suju members love them both and wanted them more involved in the group activities but bc elf never accepted them they never could
It's sad that it took him almost dying for fans to finally start accepting him as a member of the group.
If I went over Kyu's history with the group then I feel like it'd start devolving into Thesis territory with how long it'd end up being.
Mainly used the 'Only 13' example as that was a period when the relationship between Suju fans and the company really started to suffer.
The OG draft was initially going to be a lot longer and I had plans to include content on Kyu, further comparisons between cpop/jpop graduation-based groups + an extended critique on the oversaturation of idol survival programs that sadly didn't make the cut. Maybe one day I'll revisit it in a part two critiquing the toxicity of fandom culture in general. But for now, it'll be sitting in my drafts section
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jellokitty88
Stan
Forgive me if this becomes a Ted Talk but I need to get this off my chest about Pledis
Firstly, I want to say that the member who didn’t get a proper graduation ceremony was Bekah as she was the first to graduate(although at the time it felt more like a push)
That said, at least she got something
Kahi didn’t get any graduation whatsoever as she graduated during a tour I just… after everything Kahi was & did for the group & Pledis don’t give her anything at all
She deserved so much more
The two youngest members who were brought in… E-Young (debuted with ‘Shampoo’) & Gaeun (debuted with ‘Flashback’)…… I feel bad for them because pre-debut for both of them Pledis bragged about their talent (especially before debuting E-Young) She can play the piano, drums, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass guitar as well as writing and composing music but Pledis barely utilized her skills at all Why add her and then not utilize her many skills
Gaeun… the member added before Pledis started to just let the contracts run out on all the members I feel the worst for her talent being wasted for years as Pledis didn’t think of ending her contract when it was obvious After School were never going to promote again They shouldn’t’ve added her if they were just going to do that to her
It hurt my heart to see her answer questions during Produce 101 about what she had been doing since After School given that Pledis hadn’t really given her anything to do And why put her on Produce 101 if she was not going to be added to the group on what was blatently ageism
Pledis added members only to waste their talent For those members who officially graduated… If the group concept has graduation baked in then a proper graduation ceremony should be baked in too
Thank you for coming to what has probably ended up as a Ted Talk in rant form
Firstly, I want to say that the member who didn’t get a proper graduation ceremony was Bekah as she was the first to graduate
That said, at least she got somethingKahi didn’t get any graduation whatsoever as she graduated during a tour
I just… after everything Kahi was & did for the group & Pledis don’t give her anything at all She deserved so much moreThe two youngest members who were brought in… E-Young (debuted with ‘Shampoo’) & Gaeun (debuted with ‘Flashback’)……
I feel bad for them because pre-debut for both of them Pledis bragged about their talent (especially before debuting E-Young) She can play the piano, drums, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass guitar as well as writing and composing music but Pledis barely utilized her skills at all Why add her and then not utilize her many skillsGaeun… the member added before Pledis started to just let the contracts run out on all the members
I feel the worst for her talent being wasted for years as Pledis didn’t think of ending her contract when it was obvious After School were never going to promote again They shouldn’t’ve added her if they were just going to do that to her It hurt my heart to see her answer questions during Produce 101 about what she had been doing since After School given that Pledis hadn’t really given her anything to do And why put her on Produce 101 if she was not going to be added to the group on what was blatently ageismPledis added members only to waste their talent
For those members who officially graduated… If the group concept has graduation baked in then a proper graduation ceremony should be baked in tooThank you for coming to what has probably ended up as a Ted Talk in rant form
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Well said
Just 1 correction:
As a fan, it's painful to watch them promote 2x, the only way to get a break for these two is to get sick.
Fans need attachment with the groups to want to support them, SM debuted enough groups before NCT that proved this so I don't know why LSM was so obsessed with the idea.
Even if since the beginning fans know about the rotation/graduation that doesn't change the fact the more time you spend supporting an idol, the more difficult would be to say goodbye. And NCT Dream were kids that we saw grow...the attachment was even bigger.
The worst part is the uncertainty of what is going to happen when a member graduates: solo? another group? would they be successful? would I like the group after the member leaves? would I like the new group or songs with them in it? Not even the members knew.
Just 1 correction:
It's Haechan, not Jaemin.
As a fan, it's painful to watch them promote 2x, the only way to get a break for these two is to get sick.
Fans need attachment with the groups to want to support them, SM debuted enough groups before NCT that proved this so I don't know why LSM was so obsessed with the idea.
Even if since the beginning fans know about the rotation/graduation that doesn't change the fact the more time you spend supporting an idol, the more difficult would be to say goodbye. And NCT Dream were kids that we saw grow...the attachment was even bigger.
The worst part is the uncertainty of what is going to happen when a member graduates: solo? another group? would they be successful? would I like the group after the member leaves? would I like the new group or songs with them in it? Not even the members knew.