BREAKING NEWS Miyawaki Sakura will be graduating from HKT48; her graduation concert will be held on June 19th

[Whisky23]

I mean the Jpop groups that I've seen (including HKT48) are extremely talented more so than Kpop groups. Kinda confused.

There's no denying that skillwise, especially in the area of dance, that kpop groups are stronger than jpop groups. Many of the jpop idols have talked about how they often have to self-rehearse without proper trainers, so that's not really unexpected. But my point was that if PD48 was a way for Akimoto to raise awareness and popularity of AKB internationally and among the kpop community post-PD48, then I don't think that plan worked out for them. If international fans of AKB members of IZONE are saying that they are better off graduating from AKB since going back is a step down for people like Sakura, Nako and Hitomi, then I would say that isn't a great PR outcome.

But I don't think AKB was hurt that badly. Maybe Jurina would not have been healthy even without PD48, and Hitomi being away for 3 years was not a big loss. Sakura and Nako was worse and they lost some potential income with Juri but would she be a top member now?

I would have expected that the 3 members would return to AKB and stay on for a few years and get wizones to become more interested in AKB. At the very least, their return back would trigger some changes within their groups to better compete with Kpop internationally. But if all 3 are basically choosing to graduate pretty much right after IZONE, then AKB didn't gain much other than taking their share of the girls' earnings.

 

[Thomas11]

There's no denying that skillwise, especially in the area of dance, that kpop groups are stronger than jpop groups. Many of the jpop idols have talked about how they often have to self-rehearse without proper trainers, so that's not really unexpected. But my point was that if PD48 was a way for Akimoto to raise awareness and popularity of AKB internationally and among the kpop community post-PD48, then I don't think that plan worked out for them. If international fans of AKB members of IZONE are saying that they are better off graduating from AKB since going back is a step down for people like Sakura, Nako and Hitomi, then I would say that isn't a great PR outcome.

Actually I think there is denying that Kpop groups are stronger than Jpop groups in skill. Just this recent video from HKT is so much more advanced than anything IZone's done...

And when we talk of IZone's international fans we mean primarily Japanese fans right? For all we know Akimoto's goal was to bolster AKB members' popularity in hopes of also using that popularity to create greater popularity of AKB in Japan, not with KPop fans or international fans. I mean after all, AKB is the group that sells like a million singles every time they comeback. No other international or KPop girl group does that at least not consistently, right?

 

[Whisky23]

Actually I think there is denying that Kpop groups are stronger than Jpop groups in skill. Just this recent video from HKT is so much more advanced than anything IZone's done...

And when we talk of IZone's international fans we mean primarily Japanese fans right? For all we know Akimoto's goal was to bolster AKB members' popularity in hopes of also using that popularity to create greater popularity of AKB in Japan, not with KPop fans or international fans. I mean after all, AKB is the group that sells like a million singles every time they comeback. No other international or KPop girl group does that at least not consistently, right?

Spoiler

Why would Akimoto use PD48 to create popularity in Japan? They are already well established there, though their popularity has declined since their heydays. In fact, their involvement in PD48 generated quite a bit of controversy and criticisms from some circles in Japan. The problem with AKB and pretty much every music agency in Japan (well, actually a lot of businesses in other industry as well) is that the Japanese market is so large that they rarely cater to the international audience. All that was great when the Japanese economy was booming. Not so much now, with their stagnating economy. So AKB using PD48 to generate interest among Japanese makes no sense at all.

Highlighting million sku sales for AKB doesn't mean much, when you consider how much their sales have dropped since their hey days in the mid-2000s. Japan is the second largest music market after the US after all, so it's natural for an established group like AKB to do well. But several kpop groups are able to come close to those numbers (for total sales), but have done so with fewer members (better profit distribution), and without an over-reliance on those handshake events and hardcore fans buying tens of CDs at a time. And it looks like the next invasion is Kpop BGs in Japan, as several groups other than BTS are seeing exceptional sales.

Physical sales are also only one part of the equation - global digital sales on platforms like Spotify; YT ad revenue; international concert revenue - those are areas that Kpop groups have made a huge progress in the last 10 years, and in many cases done much better than their j-idol counterparts. The Kpop industry has been much more effective at monetizing every aspect of the industry (overly excessive, IMO). 4-5 music shows weekly on YT. Voting apps, paid or ad-viewing supported. Fancam videos. Vlive. Etc. Etc. Etc.

As for skill, you may have your own opinion but talk to any kpop fan and they'll clearly say that kpop groups are better dancers and have superior choreography than jpop groups. The whole dance practice video routine was pretty much popularized by Kpop groups and garner millions of views for kpop fans all over the world. If you do a quick comparison of dance practice YT views of popular Kpop groups and compare them to Jpop groups, you can clearly a difference in interest levels.

I should probably add that I grew up with Morning Musume, anime, NHK taiga dramas and samurai movies. Even spent some time self-studying Japanese since subs back then were either slow or non-existent. So I'm not a Koreaboo with a bias against J-pop or J-entertainment. But for me, Kpop and K-entertainment as industries are more dynamic and forward-thinking than their Japanese counterparts, and are doing a far superior job of recruiting new and younger fans, particularly international fans. If I was a Japanese music agency, facing a long-term prospect of physical sales being supplanted by digitals and streams (which is happening everywhere and for a while now), I would be worried.

 

[Thomas11]

Spoiler

Why would Akimoto use PD48 to create popularity in Japan? They are already well established there, though their popularity has declined since their heydays. In fact, their involvement in PD48 generated quite a bit of controversy and criticisms from some circles in Japan. The problem with AKB and pretty much every music agency in Japan (well, actually a lot of businesses in other industry as well) is that the Japanese market is so large that they rarely cater to the international audience. All that was great when the Japanese economy was booming. Not so much now, with their stagnating economy. So AKB using PD48 to generate interest among Japanese makes no sense at all.

Highlighting million sku sales for AKB doesn't mean much, when you consider how much their sales have dropped since their hey days in the mid-2000s. Japan is the second largest music market after the US after all, so it's natural for an established group like AKB to do well. But several kpop groups are able to come close to those numbers (for total sales), but have done so with fewer members (better profit distribution), and without an over-reliance on those handshake events and hardcore fans buying tens of CDs at a time. And it looks like the next invasion is Kpop BGs in Japan, as several groups other than BTS are seeing exceptional sales.

Physical sales are also only one part of the equation - global digital sales on platforms like Spotify; YT ad revenue; international concert revenue - those are areas that Kpop groups have made a huge progress in the last 10 years, and in many cases done much better than their j-idol counterparts. The Kpop industry has been much more effective at monetizing every aspect of the industry (overly excessive, IMO). 4-5 music shows weekly on YT. Voting apps, paid or ad-viewing supported. Fancam videos. Vlive. Etc. Etc. Etc.

As for skill, you may have your own opinion but talk to any kpop fan and they'll clearly say that kpop groups are better dancers and have superior choreography than jpop groups. The whole dance practice video routine was pretty much popularized by Kpop groups and garner millions of views for kpop fans all over the world. If you do a quick comparison of dance practice YT views of popular Kpop groups and compare them to Jpop groups, you can clearly a difference in interest levels.

I should probably add that I grew up with Morning Musume, anime, NHK taiga dramas and samurai movies. Even spent some time self-studying Japanese since subs back then were

either slow or non-existent. So I'm not a Koreaboo with a bias against J-pop or J-entertainment. But for me, Kpop and K-entertainment as industries are more dynamic and forward-thinking than their Japanese counterparts, and are doing a far superior job of recruiting new and younger fans, particularly international fans. If I was a Japanese music agency, facing a long-term prospect of physical sales being supplanted by digitals and streams (which is happening everywhere and for a while now), I would be worried. [/SPOILER]

Wait I see so many problems with your argument.

Basically do we think Sakura graduated because of her new-found international appeal? Of course not. Where is she going to purse a career now? In Korea? No. International? No. In Japan most likely because IZone's international appeal just isn't international enough, nor is any KPop girl group's. She's probably found new relevancy in her home country which was an alternate consequences of Akimoto's goal for AKB involvement in PD48.

And no, no girl group comes close to the top girl groups in Japan in terms of sales. Your argument about streaming is useless because streaming doesn't make nearly as much money as album sales. That's why Japan is still reliant on physical sales because they know streaming and digital basically leads the death of a nation's music industry. Notice companies like SM who purposely value album sales and fanbase far more than streams and digital sales for their girl groups because the latter just isn't a reliable way of turning profit.

And of course KPop fans are going to say KPop groups have more impressive choreo than JPop, because KPop fans are often unfamiliar with JPop and/or are biased! And with your argument about views: Jpop, like you said, doesn't try to appeal to international (Western) fans even nearly as extensively as KPop does, so of course KPop videos are going to have much greater views!

And, by the way, you should look up groups like Baby Metal who are making waves across the world even in (Western countries) solely for their talent. No other KPop girl group that is "internationally" popular is doing what they are doing or has the talent/innnovation that they have.

 

[Whisky23]

Sigh...

Spoiler

Basically do we think Sakura graduated because of her new-found international appeal? Of course not. Where is she going to purse a career now? In Korea? No. International? No. In Japan most likely because IZone's international appeal just isn't international enough, nor is any KPop girl group's. She's probably found new relevancy in her home country which was an alternate consequences of Akimoto's goal for AKB involvement in PD48.

LMAO. When did I say that Sakura graduated because of her new-found international appeal? Bizarre that you got that out what I wrote. It's obvious that Sakura graduated because being in AKB no longer gives her the path for growth that she wants . After all, she was able to achieve so much more in 2.5 years as IZONE than she did as AKB. Even she herself said it. Which is probably the same story as all the other AKB members who attended PD48 and graduated.

And no, no girl group comes close to the top girl groups in Japan in terms of sales. Your argument about streaming is useless because streaming doesn't make nearly as much money as album sales. That's why Japan is still reliant on physical sales because they know streaming and digital basically leads the death of a nation's music industry. Notice companies like SM who purposely value album sales and fanbase far more than streams and digital sales for their girl groups because the latter just isn't a reliable way of turning profit.

Twice sold 1.8 million physical albums worldwide in 2020 for both their Korean and Japanese releases. That may not put them in top place among other Japanese GGs, but I'm pretty sure that puts them in the Top 5. No doubt, there are other revenues like concerts that come into play, but not all those stats are available for public consumption, so I'm working with what I have. And please...don't try to mansplain to me (I'm a guy - I don't need mansplaining) about streaming vs physicals - I'm not some wet-nosed kid who is unaware of how the industry works. I'm a Twice stan, so I know JYPE has always prioritized physicals over digitals, and uses it as a guide for driving concert sales. Besides, digitals isn't just streaming - it's also digital album downloads, and many people, including me, are ditching the physicals for digitals.

The market moves on its own, not the wants and needs of agencies. The data already shows physical sales declining compared to digitals worldwide, including Japan. You should also try reading some of the annual reports of the kpop agencies and what they say about digitals - how most of them are noting a significant increase in revenue from digital platforms like YT and Spotify, and are reorienting some of their business activities to increase revenue from digital platforms.

Dismiss digitals all you want. I used to do the same. Said the very same thing you did...until I started crunching some numbers. The reality is that Western artists rely largely on digitals since Western users have pretty much gone all digital, and yet they are among the most financially successful artists in the world. Twice had 2 billion YT views in 2020 , which translates roughly into USD 7-10 million in ad revenue income, depending on which formula you use. For a group like BTS, it's 3 time as much, so USD 21-30 million. A year. Clean profit. In comparison, a $20 CD may sell a million units. But how much of that is cost? How much is gross profit to the agency? Probably just 20-25% at best.

And of course KPop fans are going to say KPop groups have more impressive choreo than JPop, because KPop fans are often unfamiliar with JPop and/or are biased! And with your argument about views: Jpop, like you said, doesn't try to appeal to international (Western) fans even nearly as extensively as KPop does, so of course KPop videos are going to have much greater views!

And of course, you are saying you are not biased? LMAO. Did you miss the part were I said I grew up with Morning Musume? The point is that Jpop has been trying to appeal to international fans for a while now. Why do you think they sent AKB girls to participant in PD48? (No, they didn't do send them to Korea to increase their popularity in Japan). They even launched their Cool Japan campaign over a decade ago. They just haven't been very successful so far, and even the Japanese govt themselves know that South Korea is beating them at the 'soft power' game.

And, by the way, you should look up groups like Baby Metal who are making waves across the world even in (Western countries) solely for their talent. No other KPop girl group that is "internationally" popular is doing what they are doing or has the talent/innnovation that they have.

Sigh...I've known about Baby Metal since they debuted, kid. (I really think you have no clue who you are arguing with.) Baby Metal is a great group - I like them. But they are a niche genre. Making waves across the world? Maybe within the relatively small metalhead community. But sure - let's do a comparison of some of their tour elements that "no other kpop girl group is doing"...

2016 Legend Metal Resistance tour - 2 dome concerts >> 2019 Twice #Dreamday Tour - 5 Dome Concerts

2019 Metal Galaxy World Tour - Headlining show at The Forum (headlining show = performing as a headlining artist as part of a rock festival) >> Twice Twicelights World Tour 2019 >> had their own concert at the Forum (sold out - 12K pax).

Don't get me wrong. I like Baby Metal. They've made great headway in the international markets, especially when compared to other Japanese groups. But if you think they are anywhere near as popular as the top Kpop groups, then you're sadly mistaken. Go ahead and compare them on Spotify (since we are talking international fans here).

Let's end this here. I've had enough Jpop vs Kpop arguments over the years, so I'm kinda sick of it. Like I said, I am a Japanophile, so I'm not biased against Japanese content. The only kpop i follow is Twice - I don't listen to anybody else, nor do I watch K-drama, K-variety or K-anything else, so not your typical K-fan. But I know Japanese culture, and they just don't handle and execute change very well.

 

[Thomas11]

Sigh...

Spoiler

Twice sold 1.8 million physical albums worldwide in 2020 for both their Korean and Japanese releases. That may not put them in top place among other Japanese GGs, but I'm pretty sure that puts them in the Top 5. No doubt, there are other revenues like concerts that come into play, but not all those stats are available for public consumption, so I'm working with what I have. And please...don't try to mansplain to me (I'm a guy - I don't need mansplaining) about streaming vs physicals - I'm not some wet-nosed kid who is unaware of how the industry works. I'm a Twice stan, so I know JYPE has always prioritized physicals over digitals, and uses it as a guide for driving concert sales. Besides, digitals isn't just streaming - it's also digital album downloads, and many people, including me, are ditching the physicals for digitals.

Dismiss digitals all you want. I used to do the same. Said the very same thing you did...until I started crunching some numbers. The reality is that Western artists rely largely on digitals since Western users have pretty much gone all digital, and yet they are among the most financially successful artists in the world. Twice had 2 billion YT views in 2020 , which translates roughly into USD 7-10 million in ad revenue income, depending on which formula you use. For a group like BTS, it's 3 time as much, so USD 21-30 million. A year. Clean profit. In comparison, a $20 CD may sell a million units. But how much of that is cost? How much is gross profit to the agency? Probably just 20-25% at best.


Let's end this here. I've had enough Jpop vs Kpop arguments over the years, so I'm kinda sick of it. Like I said, I am a Japanophile, so I'm not biased against Japanese content. The only kpop i follow is Twice - I don't listen to anybody else, nor do I watch K-drama, K-variety or K-anything else, so not your typical K-fan. But I know Japanese culture, and they just don't handle and execute change very well.

But in what country is Sakura's going to work on her career now? If you say Japan then you are proving my point. Is she leaving because of her new-found international appeal? OF course not (despite IZone being popular internationally). That AKB involvement in PD48 was to try to further members of AKB careers. And it doesn't appear that JYPE is prioritizing digitals over physicals at least not for Twice anyone... And I'm going to ignore your argument about Youtube views because I don't think that is any company's goal or even one of their goals when they promote a group. I think you know I'm right. Notice JYP has tried to create a fanbase for Twice because fanbases buy physicals and are therefore more reliant. SM does the exact same thing -- they've even said it. Japan as well. I don't think Japan is "behind" either. They just recognize so many of their tops GGs are fanbase oriented instead of casual-listener oriented. It's narrow minded of you to say they're behind or that they "don't handle execution well" when they just have different method of achieving success... right?

And I think it's great that Western artists rely on digital and streaming, but unfortunately we've all seen those articles that talk about how Western artists just don't make any money from streaming. It's leads to a handful of top artists turning a profit and the rest never see a profit from that platform. Which is why in the past few years touring has become so more common even for "top" artists. I still don't buy what you're saying. Add to that that JPop companies can come up with their own method of appealing to international fans. And looking at groups like Baby Metal, it appears they have. So we shouldn't compare them to Korea, right?

And yes I'm saying I'm not biased... Is that OK?

And when I spoke of Baby Metal you completely ignored my argument that their innovation is unmatched compared to other East Asian girl groups that are popular internationally. You only speak of popularity, but I don't think that was my originally argument. I like Twice too, but can't you agree Baby Metal is far more talented/innovative than any KPop girl group?